November 05, 2005
Guenter Nitschke on Moss in Zen
Here is an edited, shortend and translated version of an interview conducted by Guenter Nitschke and me on Friday, October 14th in a small café in Kyoto. Guenter Nitschke is director of the Institute for East Asian Architecture and Urbanism. He is teaching at Seika University Kyoto.
Guenter Nitschke and Kenninji Temple Moss
This talk was important to shape my whole project concerning Contemporary Moss. Our conversation opened a lot of interesting questions which had great influence on my further thinking. The following short text might give you an impression of this development.
Guenter Nitschke:
To me it seemed quite sensitive to choose something like moss for your project. However, how you´re going to implement this idea now is another story. You mentioned that the softness and the territorial character - that there might...
Well, of course, a space defined by steel barbs like, let´s say, in Star Wars drives you nervous. That´s a tremendously aggressive energy you don´t want to have. In fact the moss is precisely opposite to that.
Stefan Riekeles:
That´s exactly what this project is about. About the confrontation with the barbed wires and concrete blocks of our citys. I would like to make use of moss as an object for contemplation and reflection of the increasingly fragmented world in which we live.
GN:
Well, moss is not in the focus of our world anymore. Apart from Japan nobody is interested in it anymore. There is a moss temple here, called Saihoji. Because it is a zen temple one associates notions of meditation with it. Not with slowness, that´s a different thing, but with meditation actually. Meaning that you´re getting to a point where you´re literally transcending your normal perception. In other words: where you´re experiencing all the interfering transmitters in your brain switched off, even for just some seconds.
However, this thing about meditation seems to lack all support, may it come from historical documents or facts. Historical documents don´t even exist about that. We know that Saihoji didn´t have any moss originally. Plains of sand have been layed out there upon which the moss spread out. The priests simply accepted that. Suddenly everything was overgrown after several hundrets of years.
We know some scripts of the founding priest and the only overtone concerning a link between garden and meditation he is bearing witness to, is not on gazing at the garden. It´s not that you´re visiting Ryoanji, the rockgarden, thinking that the empty white plain is associated to Buddhistic philosophy of emptiness, that the garden might actually be a product of philosophy or a medium, a technique to bring enlightenment to anybody. That´s all bosh.
There is not one sole voice throughout history within Japanese Zen priests saying that such temples had actually been used for meditation or had been regarded to be a product of meditation. Such has all been written in the fifties by western Zen writers, but not Zen masters, on Zen in Japanese culture. That´s all fictitious.
Back to moss now. On this note the designer of Saihoji said that the actual work in the garden, the design and also the process of maintaining it, but maintaining it in full awareness of the process, should be the purpose of such a garden. But never contemplation of the final result. This is basically the same like a tea ceremonie.
SR:
So it is all about practical experience?
GN:
In Zen the world can only be understood by practical experience, not through philosophy. This misunderstanding has to become clear to you. Reading a book on meditation is completely different from doing it in order to experience something totally unique.
From this point of view it will be a very difficult argument to combine the softness, or let´s say cushy green, coherently with meditation. Meditation is more likely to emerge if you´re surrounded by a crowd of rebels in Iraq and you start to scream two seconds before death. Then there is something happening. But if you sit on a nice green bed there will not happen anything. Unless you have a master manipulating you.
Furthermore your project seems to be very solitary. In Japan anything that matters is build, enjoyed and judged on the basis of a group of people. Everything is from the group, for the group, in the group or with the group. Communication is very important. However, the moss does not reply to you.
投稿者 stefan : 09:04 PM
October 25, 2005
Martin Nebel on the biology of moss
This is an edited and shortened version of an interview conducted by Martin Nebel and Stefan Riekeles on September 19, 2005 in Stuttgart, Germany. Martin Nebel is working on the preservation of bryophytae (moss) at the museum for natural science in Stuttgart, Germany.
Editing and translation: Stefan Riekeles
Dr Martin Nebel
[Martin Nebel is browsing a book on Japanese zen gardens]
Martin Nebel:
... look at this, that´s magnificent, isn´t it. These effects in colour are completely different compared to those of a lawn. I think the green colour of a lawn is irritating. There´s nothing calm in it but something aggressive. However, I found it difficult to convince German gardeners that moss is superior to purposefully grown begonia.
Additionally cultivating moos is a rather costly task, also mentally.
Let me tell you a short story. One of my colleagues here is working with woodlouses. During a chat over coffee we came onto the question of how woodlouses curl themselves up. He suddenly laid onto the table and curled up like a woodlouse. He observed them precisely. It looked funny. However, what I learned from that anecdote is that if you really want to understand an organism you have to put yourself into the organism´s position, you have to search for the soul of this organism. If you can´t do this you will always remain on the outside, you will never disclose the essence of its being. Well, it´s already quite a long way to the woodlouses, however it is not as far as to moss. But I am getting closer and closer to it. And I think it returns something. It is something beyond rationality. If you´re constantly dealing with an organism it has a forming influence on yourself. Just like Lorenz became a goose in the end I am slowly becoming moss.
Stefan Riekeles:
One of my most urging questions is concerning the apparent stillness of moss.
From my perspective moss is giving off some kind of slowness. I took a piece of moss from the street and transplanted it into a squared box at my home. It is now growing for three weeks there and has adopted the squared shape perfectly. Therefore it can´t be that slow.
MN:
OK, but if you compare it to a higher plant it is growing really slowly. And it will never exceed a certain height. But it is correct that certain pioneering mosses are able to populate a certain expanse rapidly. Examinations on the basis of peat analysis are verifying that moss of the same variety has grown at the same spot for a period of two thousand years. Probably one individual sits there for two thousand years now. Mosses are growing endlessly. They don´t have real roots. Which means that they can die at the bottom and grow at the top. That´s the secret. The dying part is then slowly turning into humus. That way they are sitting upon their self-made layer of humus.
SR:
Moss is growing endlessly?
MN:
Yes. At the bottom it is just dying and at the top it keeps on growing. This means that a great number of moss plants which seem to be separate can emerge from a single moss plant over time. But actually it is a clone, an identical moss if you like.
SR:
That means that such a cushion actually is one single plant?
I´m interested in the idea that moss is always defining a territory. A tree for instance ist always defining a spot. Such a tree is growing exactly here. But with moss it is difficult to say where it is growing in terms of a definite spot.
MN:
The plant is growing and splitting further to the top and so on. Basically all plants are therefore connected on a deeper level. This way it is getting more and more dense at the top, one plant next to another. From the bottom the whole thing is dieing slowly. You end up with single plants growing very close to each other, just as a lawn of moss.
There is a point to this. First of all mosses don´t have a supporting tissue, which means that they mutually support each other this way. Secondly, mosses don´t have a possibility for water transport in their stalk. This means they need to be close to another in order to obtain the effect of a sponge.
SR:
The capillary effect emerges in between the plants.
MN:
Precisely. And there is another clue to it. As the humidity inside a moss cushion is much higher than in its surrounding a lot of animals, fungus and algae move in. In return they all make sure that the nutriment supply is established. Inside the moss cushion they are also protected much better from predators than outside. Well, it is a peculiar world such a moss cushion. If you open it and observe it with a microscope you will realise immediately: Ah, that´s a magnificent world here!
SR:
You´re collaborating with sociologists and economists to exchange your results. Where do you find your relations within these disciplines?
MN:
My greatest interest lies in the complexity of ecosystems. The hypothesis we are currently working on claims that selection mechanisms play a less important role the higher the complexity of an ecosystems gets. Complexity doesn´t care for hierarchies. It is networking that counts here, exchange has to be established, one has to trust another and so on. People who are in competition don´t trust each other. And that is the most important point. To overcome this principle and to adjust to another system. I think that moss could help us a lot with this.
Mosses took part in the whole process of evolution. In the beginning they have been the only ones. For a period of fifty or a hundred million years they have been alone in the world. Then they were driven out by fern and flowering plants to spots where they can still survive today. They managed to adjust to this system and to somehow find their way through.
I would say, the essence of moss is not pushiness but a calm and slow way. They are deliberately following their path. There are some varieties who are able to grow rapidly and are adjusted to a larger extend but essentially time is not very important here. I think in this regard we can learn a lot from moss.
投稿者 stefan : 05:21 PM